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America’s Antimonopoly Tradition: Talking to Barry C. Lynn

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Cooperation Used to Happen Easily: Talking to Jacques deLisle and Avery Goldstein

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Philosophical Myth Writing: Talking to Tae-Yeoun Keum

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They Can Shut You Out from Your Entire Life: Talking to Michael Heller and James Salzman

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A New Atlantic Charter: Talking to David McKean and Bart M.J. Szewczyk

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How to Open Our Markets Back Up Again: Talking to Sally Hubbard

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We Still Have to Worry About the World: Talking to Thomas Wright

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<div class="at-above-post-homepage addthis_tool" data-url="https://blog.lareviewofbooks.org/interviews/optimal-chill-talking-cass-r-sunstein/"></div>Where might the “universe of regulable falsehoods” have more variety than it might first seem? Where and why should we nonetheless protect a wide range of falsehoods? When I want to ask such questions, I pose them to Cass R. Sunstein. This present conversation focuses on Sunstein’s book <a href="https://global.oup.com/academic/product/liars-9780197545119?lang=en&amp;cc=us" onclick="__gaTracker('send', 'event', 'outbound-article', 'https://global.oup.com/academic/product/liars-9780197545119?lang=en&amp;cc=us', 'Liars: Falsehoods and Free Speech in an Age of Deception');">Liars: Falsehoods and Free Speech in an Age of Deception</a>. Sunstein is the Robert Walmsley University Professor at Harvard Law School, where he founded the Program on Behavioral Economics and Public Policy. From 2009 to 2012, Sunstein served as the Administrator of the White House Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs. In 2018, he received the Norwegian government’s Holberg Prize, often described as the equivalent of the Nobel Prize for law and humanities. His recent books include Can It Happen Here?, The Cost-Benefit Revolution, How Change Happens, and On Freedom. Our 2020 conversation about Conformity: The Power of Social Influences can be found <a href="https://blog.lareviewofbooks.org/interviews/go-different-directions-talking-cass-r-sunstein/">here</a>.
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ANDY FITCH: Could you first sketch the prevailing Supreme Court approach of (and some intellectual antecedents for) tolerating a broad circulation of false information, if only to promote robust free speech?
CASS R. SUNSTEIN: Sure. I’ll start with the 2012 United States V. Alvarez decision, where the Court basically said: “We don’t want to empower any Orwellian Ministry of Truth.” In practice, this means: we won’t regulate falsehoods just for being falsehoods. For this particular case, somebody falsely claimed to have won the Congressional Medal of Honor, in violation of the Stolen Valor Act. But the Court more or less said: “Well, you have various available options for protecting the interests of our democratic society, and for promoting the truth. You can publish an official list of medal recipients. You can publicize the winners in other ways. You can engage in counter-speech to disprove this claim. But you can’t ban someone from making this claim. We have no limiting principle like that.” And that notion of protecting falsehoods has its own antecedents, most directly the 1964 New York Times Co. V. Sullivan decision, which declared that libelous statements about public figures receive a broad measure of protection. So long as the speaker was merely negligent, or just made an honest mistake, libel in these situations remains protected speech.
We also have a longer and complex Court history of giving protection to falsehoods. Many people know as the defining example of speech that doesn’t receive First Amendment protection Justice Holmes’s famous statement that you can’t falsely cry “Fire” in a crowded theater and create a panic. That brisk but brilliant example offers something false, knowingly false, harmful, and imminently harmful. The Court has frequently cited that example, and has never taken it back.
Still we do have some lack of clarity, even after Alvarez, on what separates the false cry of “Fire!” in a crowded theater from the lie about winning a Congressional Medal of Honor. That scene in the theater stands out as more imminent, and less fixable through counter-speech, than does say a false claim made in the context of a political campaign. But other less imminent forms of speech can also be regulated. False commercial speech (say if you claim your product will cure cancer, when it won’t) can be considered fraud and can be regulated. Perjury is a felony. If you tell the FBI something untrue about yourself or about somebody else (or if you pretend to be an FBI officer, and solicit information from others), you can face criminal charges. So the universe of regulable falsehoods has more variety than it might first seem, which in part motivated me to write this book.
Liars affirms the basic Court logic for protecting a broad range of speech, but also describes that logic as “awfully abstract” at times, particularly in the face of certain 21st-century challenges to effective democratic self-rule. Could you outline some of today’s most pressing external forces (say coordinated disinformation campaigns by foreign adversaries) and internal forces (say dysfunctional social-media dynamics) that have prompted you to qualify abstracted free-speech claims?
When I first began putting this book together, I actually thought of it as a kind of manifesto in favor of regulating damaging falsehoods. I started with that original impetus. I considered working on the book with a commercial publisher, who loved the idea of an all-sirens-blazing account of the need to regulate falsehoods. But when I thought long and hard about whether I had the goods to deliver that kind of manifesto, I just wasn’t sure. And those unresolved questions made me feel more comfortable working with an academic press, with Oxford, who actually wanted me to try to figure out something.
Then as the book progressed, it became much clearer in my head (and on the page) why in fact our general protection of falsehoods remains a really good idea. With John Stuart Mill’s great “On Liberty” essay in mind, for example, I could recognize why, if someone makes a mistake about climate change or a political opponent’s policy, we don’t want to threaten them with punishment. We can’t trust public officials always to know and to dispense the truth. We can’t trust our legal system always to make infallible or even accurate judgments. If you might get punished for saying something false, then you might find it safest to shut up a lot, even when you have something true and useful to say. You might never learn what your fellow citizens really think (again, regardless of whether it’s true or false). You might never receive the benefit of needing to strengthen and clarify your own argument in response to theirs.
Taking all of this into consideration, I had to admit that these time-honored arguments for less-regulated speech still had more force than I’d originally sensed. But I also realized, as your question suggests, that those somewhat abstract arguments need some very contemporary updates, in view of the urgent necessity to protect our democratic system against certain kinds of falsehoods — and all as we maintain our commitment to a form of expressive freedom that includes various falsehoods and even lies.
To claim that our democracy requires breathing room for falsehoods doesn’t justify every falsehood. To post online that not wearing a mask will greatly reduce your likelihood of catching COVID (because particles trapped in masks cause COVID — or something clearly false like that) can itself cause harm. So how should we think about less high-minded and abstract scenarios, where leaving breathing space for speech also means leaving room for real harm? If somebody falsely claims their political opponent spent five years in jail for a sex offense, then we have to think about the consequences for our democracy, as well as for individual reputations. That puts Sullivan back on the table, and maybe in some sense back in play. Whatever philosophers say about autonomy or the marketplace of ideas sounds a little tinny in that context.
Still in terms of socially corrosive statements, how should the Court likewise update its thinking when it comes to forms of “positive” misinformation, or impersonal ideas-oriented misinformation, again where libel concerns often don’t apply? What about somebody saying, for example: “Obviously I won the 2020 election in all 50 states”?
Well it might sound counterintuitive at this moment, but definitely for what public officials say (even about elections), we should want our government to give a wide berth and protect their freedom of expression. Now, how private companies choose to respond to that kind of false statement opens up other questions. But government needs to grant much flexibility. And for government, I see the right framework as having four moving parts. First, did the person knowingly make a false statement (which could call for regulation more than a mere mistake)? Second, does this statement cause a modest harm, or a great harm? Third, should we consider that harm likely, or merely conjectural? Fourth, is that harm imminent, or something that would play out in the long term? You could have a ranking of, say, zero to four for each of those criteria. And that combined score can tell us how strong of a case for regulation we have.
In most cases, for example, a politician’s false claim about winning the election might be hard to prove as a deliberate falsehood. And even if you could prove that, we probably couldn’t expect high-probability egregious harm in the immediate short term, before anyone can offer corrective counter-speech. Though 2021’s first weeks of course have raised questions about all of that.
Questions of regulation bring us to a broader range of potential responses to false statements: from forms of punishment, to forms of censorship, to forms of corrective disclosure, to forms of recalibrated choice architecture in how digital speech gets distributed. Again, could you lay out the sometimes overlapping, sometimes competing merits of these various approaches, depending on the particular context? And could we bring in questions of who (government authorities, corporate platforms, concerned citizens) should initiate which respective responses?
That takes us to one of the most exciting developments in generations for the theory and practice of free speech. Today’s online platforms already respond to certain falsehoods in ways governments couldn’t even have contemplated before. They just didn’t have the technology. But now governments might want to piggyback on (or to mandate) some of these creative tools used online.
So in terms of a rough hierarchy of responses, government has the most severe option of criminalizing behavior or speech, and maybe deciding (at least in a tolerant liberal democracy like ours) to charge you with a misdemeanor. For a second, less severe approach, government (either executive authorities or courts) could impose a civil penalty — no jail, no criminal charge. Third, government could require some sort of disclosure, say an explicit retraction (“We published this false statement, which we now take back”), or a warning label (“FALSE,” or “DISPUTED,” or, “For other perspectives, see X”). Right now we see from Twitter and Facebook a combination of these disclosure approaches.
And then for a fourth option, having to do with choice architecture, the social-media platforms could start reducing circulation of certain false statements — making them less prominent in newsfeeds. These statements might never get taken down. But a whole lot of people won’t see them. Or some other kind of friction might get introduced. Before you like or share a post and help it spread, you might have to see (or maybe even click on) some counter-speech example likely to have an effect.
We’ll need a lot of empirical study to sift through the effects and the magnitude of these different approaches. But in a short period of time, regulators’ assortment of tools to consider has expanded greatly. And the possibility for focused, freedom-respecting tools makes the use of such tools much more appealing. So here again, some of those more abstract distinctions between either banning speech or permitting unregulated speech might need further updates.
What could it look like, in a couple representative situations, to cultivate “optimal chill,” in terms of impeding the most harmful, least useful, least correctable falsehoods — with minimal (though admittedly not zero) impact on less significant falsehoods and gropings for truth? And again, which players in government, in corporate sectors, in civil society, should play which roles in cultivating such optimal chill?
So suppose I have a product I know doesn’t help with heart disease. I know it actually raises risks of heart disease. I know this. But I also know that my population of potential purchasers will really take to buying my product if I make misleading claims about its heart-healthy features. With no restrictions placed on my claims, I might have the incentive to lie. But with the implicit threat of Consumer Reports publishing an article countering my claims, I’d face a different calculation. And with regulatory guidelines that only allow me to call this product heart healthy if that claim is demonstratively true or at least arguably true, that takes us even closer to optimal chill.
For another example, we might want to chill people who have shown themselves willing to make false and devastating claims about other private individuals on Twitter and Facebook. That probably makes sense. Though then this gets harder when we come to the optimal chill for falsehoods about public figures. We might still love Sullivan. But we need to recognize it as a dinosaur. That doesn’t necessarily mean it should go extinct. But we can do better.
And again, creating optimal chill doesn’t have to mean bringing in stiff new penalties. Maybe to prevent certain harms to our fellow human beings, to our brothers and sisters who otherwise can have their reputations ruined by somebody who doesn’t bother fact-checking his statements, we say that this false speaker will have to face the chilling effect of owning up to having made a negligent and needlessly harmful statement. Maybe if this speaker says something demonstratively false, he’ll have to pay one dollar in damages — but he’ll also have to admit he said something false.
When I ask who should take on which responsibilities, I also have in mind the more pointed question of if/when you see potentially problematic consequences to already dominant digital platforms (already facing escalating accusations of abusing this dominance in predatorial and socially detrimental ways) now taking on further quasi-state capacities. And a broader question here might ask if/how you see economic redistribution and antitrust regulation as essential complementary pillars to robust free speech. In what ways (if any) does reinforcing robust free-speech protections by necessity involve promoting economic, political, and technological equality?
Good question. For me, with these kinds of big topics, I try to compartmentalize things a bit. So, for example, what should we do about falsehoods — holding everything else constant? I’ve spent a lot of the last year on precisely that question. Then separately, do we have significant violation of our antitrust laws today? Or do we need to rejigger those laws in response to new technologies? I’m actually still agnostic on these topics, and I don’t have much antitrust expertise.
On economic equality, I definitely think that we need much more of it. A more progressive income tax seems a very good idea. More help for people at the bottom of our economic ladder seems an exceptionally good idea. Taxing the rich seems to me good, and helping the poor seems to me great. But whether regulation of social-media giants will help move us towards more economic equality again seems to me not very clear.
Many people who want aggressive regulation of Google and Twitter and Apple might also want more economic equality. But I wouldn’t prioritize aggressively regulating these companies as our first or best step towards getting more economic equality. Instead, I’d emphasize a more progressive income-tax system, a larger and more broadly available income-tax credit, more spending on education and on making college more accessible — and so forth.
Finally then, alongside new tech capacities to amplify false claims, how should jurisprudence on speech factor in contemporary behavioral-science findings? What challenges to Mill’s conception of a truth-optimizing marketplace of ideas do you take, for example, from research indicating that false information spreads faster and often sticks more enduringly in human brains? Or given our species state of meta-cognitive myopia, and our inclination to absorb unmediated signals, rather than to sift through background context (particularly when the signals sent convey a sense of urgency, surprise, disgust), how much can we rely on corrective statements or links to offset the societal harms posed by digitally distributed misinformation?
I do believe that we should prioritize what we’ve learned over the past decades about how the human mind works. The legal system really hasn’t done this yet. The most dramatic and relevant findings show that, for a certain range of us, if somebody tells us something false, and even if we’re simultaneously told that this statement’s false, we still can’t help remembering it after the fact as true. Or many of us certainly will wonder whether it might be true, which does suggest that corrections have a limited and imperfect effect. This can strengthen the argument for taking something down, instead of simply countering it. Or maybe people first should see the evidence that a statement is false, before they even see the statement — rather than reading a correction after the fact.
With respect to false claims about Hillary Clinton’s emails, or about Democrats stealing the Pennsylvania election, I still would recommend giving a wide berth for freedom of expression. But we do need to recognize that the corrosive effect of such lies might be much worse than we had assumed. Even people who doubt in real time President Trump’s false claims about the election might still be swayed. Or a behaviorally informed hunch would suggest that a large number of Hillary Clinton’s supporters might actually feel alarmed in some part of their mind, even if on reflection they can see that statements about her emails’ criminality were baseless.
And I guess we’ll need to discuss next time how much we can expect today’s platform firms to depart from a business model largely fueled by luring and hooking users through shocking and exciting and arresting speech.
Right, this book’s acknowledgments do offer the disclaimer that I’ve worked a bit (not for more than three days total, over the past six years) as a consultant for Facebook. But I know that a lot of what I say in here Facebook won’t particularly love.
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Optimal Chill: Talking to Cass R. Sunstein

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Will Only the Rich Not Be Lonely: Talking to Noreena Hertz

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<div class="at-above-post-homepage addthis_tool" data-url="https://blog.lareviewofbooks.org/interviews/language-everybody-understands-talking-representative-debbie-dingell/"></div>How should Democrats discuss their political vision for 2021 and beyond? How can they win back the respect of workers who feel left behind? When I want to ask such questions, I pose them to Representative Debbie Dingell. Dingell serves Michigan’s 12th District in the US House of Representatives, where she has made it a priority to provide a Midwestern perspective on concerns of working families. As a member of the House Committee on Energy and Commerce, Dingell has emphasized initiatives to invigorate domestic manufacturing, improve access to quality affordable health care, support seniors and veterans, and protect the Great Lakes. Recognized as one of the 25 hardest-working members of Congress, Dingell focuses on forging bipartisan solutions. Before being elected to Congress, Dingell worked in the auto industry for more than three decades, including as President of the General Motors (GM) Foundation, and as a senior executive responsible for public affairs. She also has chaired the Wayne State University Board of Governors. 
Our conversation (centered on Dingell’s role as one of four co-chairs of the recently restructured House Democratic Policy and Communications Committee, as well as on the Democratic Party’s medium-term future) took place during the final days of 2020.
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ANDY FITCH: Some congressional Democrats (Pramila Jayapal, for example) recently have described to me the need to reframe certain political discussions from a perspective of morals and values — not only a tactical perspective of electoral or legislative strategy. What do you see as a few pressing moral visions for the broader Democratic Party to unite around, to make vivid for the American public, and to fight for?
DEBBIE DINGELL: I’ll start with how COVID has provided the opportunity for Americans to really see and understand the fractures around healthcare in this country. As the only industrialized nation that doesn’t guarantee all of its citizens access to healthcare, we face the pressing moral questions of: is healthcare a human right? Is clean water a human right? Which basic necessities of living should all of us have access to?
Too often, we’ve let others define these issues in our public conversations. But if you ask some of the toughest conservatives (who call Medicare for All a “socialist” project), they also believe someone sick should be able to see the doctor, and afford the prescribed medicine, and not have to worry about losing their workplace insurance or seeing their benefits reduced — and then winding up with even higher costs and longer waiting times. When we discuss issues like these in terms of morals and values, the other side doesn’t get to define the whole debate. People understand what we’re trying to accomplish. They can see that establishing a basic right to healthcare will make their families and their neighbors better off.
Some congressional Democrats (Sheldon Whitehouse, for example) recently have offered a stark contrast between Democratic tendencies to gravitate towards overheated public debates, and Republican tendencies to pursue change (or at least preserve power) through less high-profile procedural or institutional means. Where do you see the need for a more strategic, persistent, implementable, and sustainable approach when it comes to the Democratic Party’s coordination of its communications and policy initiatives?
Again, we have to do a better job of articulating our vision, and defining what we want to accomplish. We also have to stop attacking each other. I’ll offer an example from the past and then take this into the future.
So first, going back to getting Social Security passed, I’ll admit to a little bias here. My father-in-law helped to pass our Social Security laws. At that time, America had old people living on the street, with nobody taking care of them. Our country eventually had to recognize how much worse off many of our older people were, compared to older people in other countries. So Congress introduced Social Security, and some politicians called it a communist idea. My father-in-law actually had crosses burned on his lawn. Can you imagine anybody responding like that to Social Security today?
But as Democrats, I think we often make the mistake of talking in big words. Progressives in particular don’t always use language that a working man or woman and their families and friends could bring to the dinner table, to start a conversation. I think we need to do better talking in language that everybody understands. So what does a working family want? What does every American deserve? They should make enough money to put enough food on the table. They should have equal opportunity. They want to buy a home or rent an apartment in a safe neighborhood. They want to send their children to a school and college that will give them a good future. If someone in their family gets sick, they want that person cared for by the right doctor, and able to afford the prescribed medicine. They want a safe and secure retirement. That may all sound basic, but that’s what we’re fighting for.
We have far too many Americans working in poverty. And quite frankly, the value that we put on various jobs also needs rethinking. COVID should make us all reassess the value of certain job categories. What does it mean that we started 2020 assuming a lot of people didn’t deserve 15 dollars an hour, and then these very people were the glue that held our whole society together? We need to put more value on the work they do, and articulate that, and really appreciate that.
And again, we need to discuss these issues in a way that people can understand, from their own perspective. We can’t always communicate in such abstract or idealistic ways. We need to talk to people across the country on their own terms. I particularly feel this in the Midwest, where people think that the coastal elites drive so many of their problems, and can’t seem to recognize that Americans across this country, working men and women in a plant, on a farm, in a school, in a grocery store, driving a bus — they’re just really good people who want to make a decent living and give their family a good quality of life.
Well Nebraska Democratic Party Chair Jane Kleeb recently argued in this column that: “One fundamental value we as Democrats hold in our hearts and in our guts tells us that we don’t leave people behind…. We don’t forget the people struggling and the people hurting. And yet, the Democratic Party has done all of that to rural voters since the 1980s. We have left rural Americans behind. We have stereotyped them. We have written them out of the policies that we most fiercely fight for.” Where do you see the Party most needing to devise 50-state solutions, for which most daunting 21st-century challenges?
I agree with her on us leaving many rural areas behind. We also haven’t done enough for a whole lot of working men and women. I mean, four years ago, I told the media: “Donald Trump could win.” Everybody laughed at me. But Trump talked about certain issues that really mattered to many working people, and made them feel understood. I’ll never forget what happened to the auto industry in 2008, and not just the auto industry. People in manufacturing jobs across this whole country had thought that if you worked hard, and played by the rules, your job was safe and your future was secure. But suddenly it wasn’t. That fear and anxiety still lives in the hearts of many working men and women.
And then specifically in rural communities, you have Big Farm getting all these subsidies and breaks, and nobody caring about independent farmers trying to save their land. A family might have passed down its farm from generation to generation. But today the government works against this family protecting the farm it has held onto all that time. Many of those farmers probably have good reason to think many Democrats don’t give a damn about them. Many auto workers don’t think Democrats give a damn about them — and they still thought that in the 2020 election. They see trade policies shipping their jobs overseas. They see their children having fewer job opportunities. They feel stuck competing in this global marketplace with nobody looking out for them. They deserve our respect. And we as Democrats need to earn their respect.
Then when you talk about 50-state solutions, obviously climate change and the environment stand out. Whether or not somebody participates in the intellectual discussions, they can see the wildfires and hurricanes. They can feel the new threats to their local economy. But it’s also hard to look far into the future when you sense your own job might disappear. So again, we need to talk about these very important issues in the right way. We need to make clear that protecting our environment will also mean protecting jobs, and keeping jobs here.
So look, I’m a Michigan girl. My best examples come from home. As we move towards electric vehicles we need to build consumer confidence that we’ll have the infrastructure and the battery range. But right now, most of the battery production and a lot of the innovation happens overseas. We need to find ways to rebuild our own manufacturing base.
I also believe very strongly that when the government accepts bids at the federal level, we can’t always just look at cost as the main concern. We often need to make national security one of the top criteria. We can’t depend on other countries to develop our future car batteries. We should build them here. We hopefully have learned from COVID that we never should just depend on India and China for our medicines and PPE. Or today China actually builds a lot of our electrical grid and its generators. What does that mean in terms of the software used, our understanding of how it works, our security? And for all of this we need to ask: how can we better support manufacturing and manufacturing jobs in this country?
Just before the election, Sherrod Brown emphasized to me the need for Democrats, for all voters, for Americans in general to feel tangible benefits right away from Joe Biden replacing Donald Trump as President. What legislative steps will congressional Democrats likewise need to take in 2021, to fend off possibilities for a 1994- or 2010-style midterms outcome in 2022?
Sure, in this committee we’ll need to focus on that. But first, most broadly, I’ve never seen this country more divided — and I’m a student of history. I wrote my master’s thesis on civility in Congress, and how that reflected on the country. But we’ve been just torn apart in recent years, and it’s not just Donald Trump.
Joe Biden, thankfully, knows how to work across the aisle, how to bring people together. And I think right now our country needs, first and foremost, somebody with empathy and compassion and a knack for helping us to heal. So if he can somehow find a way to start bringing Americans together again, that seems like the most important first step.
At the same time, we can’t even begin to address America’s economic needs unless we have an effective national COVID strategy. President-elect Biden has shown leadership on that, by quickly naming his COVID task force. Over the next six months, if we can get enough Americans vaccinated, then our economy can start coming back, and our children can return to school, and many more people can return to work, and restaurants and many small businesses can reopen. But then we also need to answer ongoing questions like: what kind of economy do we want? How will it support people in manufacturing jobs and on small farms? What kinds of investment does it need, and how can we make sure it works for all Americans?
And I know you asked about our domestic politics, but quite frankly, it also stands out to me (even just in the last week) how much we’ve damaged our relationships with the rest of the world, and have lost the trust of close allies and many other nations. We definitely need to build that back up. A lot of Americans might ask: why should we even get involved with all of those other countries? Why should we give foreign aid? So we’ll need to explain (again in understandable terms) the importance to our own national security of reconnecting with other countries around the world.
Do you see specific ways in which the revamped DPCC organizational structure can help to carry out the goals you’ve discussed today?
Well, I like how it forces us to work together, and with all segments of our caucus. Maybe the fact that we don’t have as big of a majority will get the whole caucus talking to each other more. As a legislator, I’ve always valued talking to people across the spectrum in my caucus, and reaching across the aisle to work with Republicans. My husband taught me all of that. But I see it as one of the biggest challenges we face right now. None of us has all the answers. Each of us has different life experiences and a useful perspective to offer. God gave us two ears and one mouth for good reason. We all need to listen more and talk less (especially in these first few months), so that we can respond and really help to heal this country.
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Language that Everybody Understands: Talking to Representative Debbie Dingell

Andy Fitch’s most recent books are <a href="http://www.uglyducklingpresse.org/catalog/browse/item/?pubID=254">Sixty Morning Talks</a>, <a href="http://www.uglyducklingpresse.org/catalog/browse/item/?pubID=305">Sixty Morning Walks</a>, <a href="http://eclipsearchive.org/projects/WLAKS/">Sixty Morning Wlaks</a> and (with Amaranth Borsuk) <a href="http://www.subitopress.org/as-we-know">As We Know</a>. With Cristiana Baik, he recently assembled the <a href="http://www.lettermachine.org/book/the-letter-machine-book-of-interviews/">Letter Machine Book of Interviews</a>. He has dialogic books forthcoming from 1913 Press and Nightboat Books. He edits&nbsp;<a href="http://www.essaypress.org/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer">Essay Press</a>&nbsp;and teaches in the University of Wyoming’s MFA program.

Andy Fitch